Jan 152003

Just had the following conversation with the writer of this comment. The names have been changed to protect the silly. And because it’s funny. And it’s my journal.

Just had the following conversation with the writer of the above post. The names have been changed to protect the silly. And because it’s funny. And it’s my journal.

Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Ok, your worms are all over the place again.
Critus: Whaaaat??
Critus: What did I do now???
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: That totally fucked up article you posted.
Critus: Oh jebus…I thought you were saying I’d gotten up someone’s ass again.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: oh no…and I kept my reply to less than 1/2 the length of the article…but I could have kept going, and going, and going…
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: I am assuming you wanted it read because you agree with at least many of his points…
Critus: aye
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Well, I suppose I should get myself set for another good round of declarations of my assedness.
Critus: ahhh
Critus: tsk, tsk, tsk
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: yes.
Critus: We are not the good guys.
Critus: We’re not the bad guys.
Critus: But we aren’t going in there riding a white horse and saving the fucking day.
Critus: We don’t give a rats ass about Iraq. We don’t care about humanitarian actions. We don’t. There are far, far too many examples of situations where we have done NOTHING to save oppressed peoples when there was no profit margin involved.
Critus: China and Tibet being two perfectly good examples.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: I’ll agree with your first two statements, but I think you are wrong on the last one. We will be saving the day for millions of people. Granted, we will plunder the town as we do it…but afterwards the future for Iraq will be much brighter.
Critus: YOu mean like the future of Afghanistan was after we put the Taliban in power?
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: A. That was 25 years ago. B. at the time the options were Taliban or USSR. At least the Taliban were locals. C. We supported teh “citizens of Afghanistan” in overthrowing the invaders.
Critus: Right…WEll…The ‘citizens of iraq’ just unilaterally VOTED for Saddam Hussein
Critus: And yes, I know that is not an accurate way to measure that
Critus: and as far as that being 25 years ago…look back through history…how many times have we put a dictator in power? And why? Profit.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Oh please don’t tell me you threw the recent Iraqi “election” at me. George Bush having an 88% approval rating is just war mongering hype, but Saddam winning an election with 100% of the vote is legit??? Come on.
Critus: You want examples of how fucked up we are?
Critus: 1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.
Critus: 1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala.
200,000 civilians killed.
Critus: September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.
Critus: 1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
Critus: 1980’s: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.
Critus: 1981: Reagan administration trains and funds “contras”. 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
Critus: ooo…I love this one…1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
Critus: 1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis.
Critus: 1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties
Critus: 1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties
Critus: 1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
Critus: 1998: Clinton bombs “weapons factory” in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
Critus: Iraq bad for it’s citizens?? 1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.
Critus: 2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in “aid”.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Ok, you are making the mistake of using pre-9/11 actions and applying them to what the US is here and now. Previously, all this overthrowing was covert, secret shit.

This is a new America. An America where stuff can and will come get us from where ever it happens to be based. Now we HAVE to get involved publically and globally. That is what the American people want, and that is what GWWBush is delivering.
Critus: NEW AMERICA???
Critus: Where is Osama Bin Laden?
Critus: When is the last time you heard about Afghanistan in the news?
Critus: If we weren’t meddling in their fucking politics they wouldn’t give a good god damn about us.
Critus: But we prop up whoever it is that promises they are going to give us the most oil at the cheapest prices, and when those people turn around and stab us in the back we put another petty dictator in their place
Critus: And we are doing all of this over a FINITE RESOURCE
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Yes. All that stuff you just quoted…people ARE pissed off about it. They are mostly pissed off becuase in spite of all the AID we gave to Osama and Iraq, we turn out to be their targets. We gave that aid in the hopes that by showing friendship we could persuade them to join in our ways, in our prosperity. The did nothing but fuck us.

AND, you mean to tell us that throughout the whole gulf war we could hit dimes in Iraqi-mart parking lots with bombs, but in the 10 years since we can’t seem to target anything but women and children???
Critus: it did not say 500,000 children ONLY…it said 500,000 children. Period. from bombing and sanctions.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Bombing and sanctions. I like ow they lump that together.
Critus: Diseases eradicated in the 80s have returned, and in many cases—due to the sanctions—the medications needed to treat the diseases are not available. UNICEF, a part of the United Nations, estimated that between 1991 and 1998 over a million Iraqis died from malnutrition and disease, due in large part to the UN implemented sanctions and the US and British bombings that have decimated the Iraqi water supply and overall infrastructure
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Sanctions approved by the UN, btw. Bombing may have killed some of those children, but I’m willing to bet 99.9% of that death toll really gets charged to sanctions…which the anti-war crowd wants to continue. Fuck that. Every day we waste in getting that man out of power is another day they suffer under sanctions.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: AND…THE SANCTIONS DO NOT PROHIBIT MEDICINE OR FOOD. Why don’t you ask where the meds and food go? Huh?
Critus: “Iraq depends on importing specialized equipment and some chemicals to purify its water supply, most of which is heavily mineralized and frequently brackish to saline,” the document states. “With no domestic sources of both water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals, Iraq will continue attempts to circumvent United Nations Sanctions to import these vital commodities. Failing to secure supplies will result in a shortage of pure drinking water for much of the population. This could lead to increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease.”
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: The US itself has delivered medicine and food. And a good case could be made that the deseases that are returning are all related to the documented gassing of his own people that Saddam has done. Yeah, we put his ass in power. Yeah, we made him even more powerful. And yeah, we need to undo that as fast as we can.
Critus: oh here..
Critus: http://www.progressive.org/0801issue/nagy0901.html
Critus: And…again…regardless of why we are in Iraq….why not China? Why not Tibet?
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: I will read it when I get back.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Why not China, because the stakes are higher in China. They are the other 800lb gorilla. If we tried to bully China the way we are bullying Iraq, it would only result in two big craters on the asian and north american continents.
Critus: Right…so instead we give them most favored nation status
Critus: Because it would cost us too much money to do anything otherwise
Critus: because our economy is dependent on china
Critus: SO
Critus: we wag our fingers at them
Critus: and say “bad china”
Critus: and they do as much, or worse, to their population
Critus: and it’s ok…because it benefits us
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Yep, again in a era when that was the only thing we could do. Right now with China, the best thing we can do is hope the chinese stage their own revolution. And it’s starting to work as evidenced by China clamping down on internet use. They are afraid of our passive influence on their people
Critus: Because, you know, Democracy is working so well for Russia.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: No. Not because it benefits us, because it is our only option. Really, think about what China might do back as opposed to what Iraq probably will be able to. Just like 20 years ago, the Republican Guard will be surrendering to a CNN crew.
Critus: And Saddam Hussein, if he does have this weapons of mass destruction, will use them all if he is cornered
Critus: he will take as many people down with him as he can
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Because, you know, Russia was soooo fucked when they switched. There will be a shakeout in China when it happens as well.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: Which brings me to reminding you of how Saddam thinks. Did he really resist against us the last time? No. A good 80% of he offense during the Gulf War was directed at Isreal who had PURPOSELY stayed out of that war. Saddam would rather attack defenseless citizens than an army poised at his borders. And he could have avoided that as well, all he had to do was back out of Kuwait
Critus: Right…but what threat is he to us now?
Critus: If that is really what it’s about.
Critus: I’m not a peace activist. If we need to defend ourselves, of if we need to help a country in need…I”m all for it. But this war is about oil. It’s always been about oil. It will always be about oil. If the oil fields in Iraq dried up tomorrow, we’d pack up and go home and never look back.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: I have never said that him being a threat to us was what it was ALL about. I won’t deny the oil. I will admit that he’s been an embarrassment to the US. I believe he does what he can to assist terrorists threatening the US. And I also believe that he oppresses his people greatly.

My opinion is that the best deal for everyone involved except Saddam Hussein is that he is removed from power. And it’s my opinion that our involvement is the best way to make that happen. I wish, with everything I have, that he would just step aside and war could be avoided. But since he won’t, we have to play the bully because no one else can as well as we can.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: That is where I think you are wrong. I don’t think it is ALL about oil.
Flag Waving Conservative Guy: I’ve gotta run.
Critus: later

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